Turbo Rant

"Denver Is Stuck In The 90s" (denver80222)
08/12/2014 at 01:06 • Filed to: Turbo

Before I start this rant, let me say that I dont hate turbochargers. Ive encountered a few people lately that have talked like the turbocharger is the cure-all for crappy cars. I have a friend that I told recently that I want a Type 1 beetle. He said "you should turbo it", I tried to explain that that doesnt really work with air cooled engines. Then he listed the guys he knows who has done it without describing how. Then my other friend says I wanna buy a Veloster turbo because turbo means fast. I said not necessarily. I mean if I were to show either of these friends this car:

They would look on the side and say " It must go really fast!" I mean it bugs me that people can be this dumb. Im not saying that turbos dont have a purpose. I just hate that some people think that they can go buy a pinto, slap a turbo on it and instantly be able to compete with lamborghinis. UGHHHH!!! Some people just make me wanna pull my hair out.

/End Rant

DISCUSSION (65)

M54B30 > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:11

my dad has a PT Cruiser with the turbo (03, 230hp, same engine from SRT4).

Regular PTs blow. His turbo one is pretty sweet. Quick, fast, agile, and engine/exhaust sounds fantastic.

He's the only person I know who owns a car that he hates every other version of.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:12

turbo boost

because KITT

lonestranger > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:12

I'm with you an all counts except for "that doesnt really work with air cooled engines". Wat?

Big Bubba Ray > lonestranger
08/12/2014 at 01:14

I was thinking the same thing.

Porsche would like to have a word with Mr. Denver.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > M54B30
08/12/2014 at 01:15

You do realize that the same engine thats in the SRT4 was in this:

Kinja'd!!!

Its not about Horsepower, its about power to weight ratios, and the PT cruiser weighs close to 4 tons. 230hp + 4 tons = not very fast

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > lonestranger
08/12/2014 at 01:16

doesnt a turbo require a liquid cooling apparatus of sorts?

DanZman > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:16

I agree completely. My ex boss has an 03 IS300 and he was convinced that he was going to buy a $2500 "turbo kit" and have a reliable 700hp car. Never mind the fact that I once let him drive my 350z and he couldn't even handle that. I never let him touch the Vette...

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
08/12/2014 at 01:17

Sound reasoning

Kinja'd!!!

Dsscats > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:20

I have a friend that said, of another friend's CT200H, that when it was in sport mode, "the throttle was faster and it's almost like its a turbo". I cried a little inside.

Dsscats > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:21

My friend Mr 930 would like to talk to you for a moment....

M54B30 > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:22

230hp, 260 lb-ft and it's only 3,123 lbs - not 8,000.

0-60 in just under 7 seconds was pretty good in 2003.

Dsscats > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:22

The same engine without a turbo. That's a huge deal.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > M54B30
08/12/2014 at 01:23

Sorry, read the conversion wrong. Almost 2 tons

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:23

All Motor Is Best Motor > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:23

To the common public "turbo" just means faster. 99% of people have no clue how a turbo works or what it accomplishes.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Dsscats
08/12/2014 at 01:24

I feel your pain

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > M54B30
08/12/2014 at 01:24

My mom has a convertible '05 Cruiser GT with the turbo. Yup, it's fast a hell. I actually like it, if the chassis wasn't so godawful.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Dsscats
08/12/2014 at 01:25

So, I dont know how a turbo would work with an air cooled engine, sue me

Squid > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:26

An oil cooler would work just fine. They just need a constant supply of oil that isn't close to vaporizing. I had a friend who put a turbo VW motor in his sandrail, it never ran correctly because it was pushed to its limit, but when it did run it was fucking amazing.

In the air cooled motors, your oil is the coolant so you just need to keep that cool and have good air flow and you will be fine, just look at the 930 turbo and realize that your statement is false.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Dsscats
08/12/2014 at 01:27

I know a turbo works by forcing more air into the combustion chamber, but doesnt it also create a lot of excess heat? I wouldnt think a standard VW engine could support that

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > All Motor Is Best Motor
08/12/2014 at 01:28

Turbos are like aerodynamics. It's a black art that nobody but two people know how they work.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Squid
08/12/2014 at 01:28

I was gonna say, If it needed a liquid coolant than would it still be air cooled?

Textured Soy Protein > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:28

I tried to explain that that doesnt really work with air cooled engines.

Um, what?

Kinja'd!!!

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:29

Compared to a non-turbo version of pictured FJ60/62, that one is fast. It's all relative. Also, there are plenty of turbo flat 4 Beetles out there.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Textured Soy Protein
08/12/2014 at 01:29

see my reply to dsscats

lonestranger > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:30

The turbocharger itself is cooled (and lubricated) by engine oil. The charge air may optionally be cooled by either an air-to-air or, rarely, a water-to-air intercooler.

Not only have people been turbocharging air-cooled VWs for decades, can you think of a similar car with a similar engine to an air-cooled VW? One that is actually quite well known for its turbo variant? I don't want you to feel like a fool, but I bet you do now. Sorry.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > lonestranger
08/12/2014 at 01:31

I feel like a fool

Squid > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:32

Well you can't run a motor with out oil in it, so by default the oil gets to act as your coolant. The absence of water or propylene glycol gives it the name air cooled, because it is just using air to help cool your oil down to regulate the engines temperature.

All Motor Is Best Motor > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback
08/12/2014 at 01:33

Well, a basic tail spoiler isn't that difficult to understand. Air hits the top of it and pushes on it with force. That force has to go somewhere so it goes down. I know there's a lot more to it (they also act as upside down plane wings, generating negative pressures and whatnot).

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Squid
08/12/2014 at 01:33

I was really referring to intercoolers

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > lonestranger
08/12/2014 at 01:35

I'd say the biggest obstacle would be the carbs on the beetle.

Yes, you can turbo a carby engine.. but it's a huuuge pain in the arse to tune and get running reliably.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > All Motor Is Best Motor
08/12/2014 at 01:36

I have a basic understanding of aerodynamics but still, on those racing cars with their thousands of pounds on downforce because of inlets, winglets, and of course wings.

All Motor Is Best Motor > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback
08/12/2014 at 01:36

Oh, that's something else entirely.

M54B30 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
08/12/2014 at 01:37

most of my dad's complaints are huge turning circles that make a u-turn impossible (he lives in Germany where roads are super narrow) and crappy gas mileage (15mpg city tops)

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > All Motor Is Best Motor
08/12/2014 at 01:37

Yeah, that's the dark arts part.

Squid > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:38

Oh, well intercoolers are really just pressurized air tanks that look like radiators. Air to air intercoolers are the most common for turbo cars, but you could also use an air to water intercooler, those are generally used with superchargers though. But for the most part no coolant is used to cool the pressurized air coming from the turbo to the throttle body.

You don't even need to run an intercooler, you just get to run very low boost. Intercoolers are just giant radiators for air, that is all.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:38

cooling can be easily figured out (lower boost, lots of airflow).. how to tune the carbs to handle the turbo though?

still doable but a huge waste of time.

lonestranger > Squid
08/12/2014 at 01:38

What many people don't realize is that even in any water-cooled engine, a huge part of the oil's function is actually managing heat (i.e. cooling).

With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:40

The perplexed look on those same people's faces when I tell them about what I want for my Miata someday....

Me: "Sure, it's true you can double the stock HP with some pretty comprehensive turbo kits out there. Maybe a couple three grand or so. But my dream is ITBs."

Them: "How much is that?"

Me: "Almost as much, once you factor in the new ECU and injectors."

Them: "So how much more HP does that give?"

Me: "Oh, I don't know... A dozen or so? But the sound and the throttle response ...."

Them: "YOU ARE TEH STUPID, BRAH"

Squid > lonestranger
08/12/2014 at 01:40

Yup, the specific heat of oil is much higher than that of water so it is much more resilient to temperature shocks. It just helps that it is the main lubricant.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard
08/12/2014 at 01:41

I was basically saying its not worth the effort, but I also didnt fully understand how a turbo would work on an aircooled engine

All Motor Is Best Motor > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback
08/12/2014 at 01:41

Reminds me of this quote by Jeremy Clarkson .

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > M54B30
08/12/2014 at 01:41

My mom also complains of the awful turn radius, and the gas mileage has driven her (hurr) to get rid of it as soon as possible for something that does better on the highway.

Textured Soy Protein > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:43

Welp, if you don't actually know how something would work, it might be difficult to explain how it wouldn't work. ;)

It basically comes down to having a big enough oil cooler, and enough airflow to both the oil cooler and the motor.

Here's the back of a 930:

Kinja'd!!!

You'll notice that the left hand side of the underside of the spoiler is a direct inlet to the intercooler (the big black rectangle thing on the left side of the motor), while if you see those tubes and fins on the right hand side, that's an oil cooler actually I think that's the a/c condenser. Plus the bigass red fan at the back of the motor. So lots of airflow.

Then there's oil lines coming off the motor that run up to an oil cooler (or two, depending on the model) up at the front of the car to get cool air to the oil cooler(s).

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > Textured Soy Protein
08/12/2014 at 01:45

that actually makes alot of sense. I know how a turbo works, just not how it works on an engine I guess. But this whole turbo VW argument is kinda beside the point of the post dont ya think?

Squid > With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username
08/12/2014 at 01:46

IRTBs are amazing. totally not worth it in the power department, but the sound.

Textured Soy Protein > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:50

Perhaps it is. But if you think in terms of your conversation, it started out with that other guy saying you should turbo a VW, and you saying turbos don't work on air-cooled engines.

So, I was reading your post, and I stopped there, because it was a big heywaitaminute for me.

beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:52

don't get me wrong, there's kits available that you more or less bolt on. but it's still a lot of effort or price.

these guys do a kit where they come with carbs that are better suited to the turbo

http://www.lowbugget.com/turbo_bug_kit.…

but even at close to $3000 (plus paying whoever to install it for you) you're looking at 200hp on the highest boost.

lonestranger > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:53

On the plus side, you learned something today. Here, have an air-cooled flat-12 twin-turbocharged 1,500+ HP monster:

Kinja'd!!!

mcseanerson > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 01:55

Before every last thing had a turbo variant I was in love with turbo chargers and in the right applications I still am. What I hate though is I feel that well tuned N/A motors are being undervalued now. Like adding a turbo to a GT3 will make it better. I hate that everyone says what a BRZ needs is a turbo. No it needs a full exhaust, a cam, and a tune. That would cure your torque dip and give you just the right amount of power with great responsiveness and sound.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > Squid
08/12/2014 at 01:55

Don't mind my asking but what's an IRTB?

Textured Soy Protein > norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback
08/12/2014 at 02:31

Individual throttle bodies. I think the R is for "runner" or something. I and many others call them ITBs.

Most fuel injected cars have one throttle, which connects to an intake manifold, which splits into separate pipes for each cylinder, called runners. There's a fuel injector at the bottom of the runner where it meets the intake port of the cylinder head. Hence the name "port fuel injection." Alternatively, direct injection has a fuel injector inside the cylinder itself, rather than the intake manifold.

Back to ITBs, they look like this:

Kinja'd!!!

Each cylinder gets its own throttle, and then there's a fuel injector right there as well. The polished circle trumpet things are the air intakes for the throttles, and that red thing on the left is the fuel rail. The black/silver things sprouting from it are the fuel injectors.

Some cars come from the factory with ITBs. Mostly normally-aspirated BMW M cars (except the North American E36 M3, which didn't keep the ITBs of its European counterpart). They're more common on motorcycles.

norskracer98-ExploringTheOutback > Textured Soy Protein
08/12/2014 at 02:36

Thanks!

offroadkarter > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 03:53

blame marketing, like the current VW commercial that claims the 170hp turbo jetta is "fast"

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > M54B30
08/12/2014 at 04:41

I'm sorry man, I regret to inform you a PT Cruiser is never sweet.

It really does break my heart to tell you

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > beardsbynelly - Rikerbeard
08/12/2014 at 04:50

$3000!?! That's probably about what I'd pay for the beetle off craigslist.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman
08/12/2014 at 04:52

the GT part of the pt is like a teaspoon of sugar in gallon of lemon juice. Makes it better, but not really

BigBlock440 > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 08:05

I've never seen a turbo engine in one of those. Are you sure it wasn't a custom job?

DipodomysDeserti > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/12/2014 at 10:41

Abarth 500 > FIAT 500

WRX > Impreza

300TD > 300D

Turbos make everything better...

SRTPT > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/13/2014 at 17:49

4 tons who told you that? Actually about 34oolbs with the slightly heavier Getrag 5-spd.. With borrowing a few bits from the SRT4 parts bin you can take your stock 15second 1/4 mile times and drop them into the mid 13's which I did.. It's not a top end fast car, which I find not as useful as quickness. Need a gap in traffic? done, need to pass the left lane hog? Done. Easily done. It's quick and has surprised a lot of people. And without attracting attention from law enforcement. Cheaper by a lot on insurance for me a female than a SRT4. It is a sleeper, and that to me is worth a lot.

SRTPT > lonestranger
08/13/2014 at 17:50

Nope.

SRTPT > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
08/13/2014 at 17:52

Lower it and beef up your suspension.. There is a huge amount of softness built into the suspension.. But it will always understeer like a pig..

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > SRTPT
08/13/2014 at 18:58

Honestly the suspension is pretty damn firm. The problem is the ENTIRE CAR flexes when I go over bumps and it's a tad unsettling.

SRTPT > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To
08/13/2014 at 19:26

That would be cause it is missing the top.. The hardtop cars are pretty solid. Also it can feel unsettled if bushings are starting to go, replace with poly bushings as they need it. The turning radius is a product of the front end design, with the auto trans(if that is what you have) is worse since the trans sits down to the left and they reduced the number of turns you get lock to lock compared to the manual. But my GT manual isn't much better, the non turbo manual is the tightest radius of them.. I know I had a non turbo manual before the turbo manual. And the steering racks are different(found that out after an accident and had the wrong steering rack sent to me). They don't interchange.

and 100 more > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s
08/15/2014 at 16:01

TIL: The 2nd-gen Sebring came in a turbocharged variant.

(EDIT: ...exclusive to Mexico, on a car sold as the Cirrus)

And here I thought they were all rental cars...